Meet Derek Brown, Candidate for Utah Attorney General

[00:00:00] Welcome back to the Political Life podcast. Today we bring you a great episode. We come to you from the state of Utah. Well, actually, we're not only one of us is located in the

[00:00:26] state of Utah, and that is we are featuring Derek Brown, a candidate for attorney general in Utah. So he is in Utah. But the star co-host Maggie Mick and myself, Jim O'Brien, we are

[00:00:42] not in Utah. And so we are very excited to have Derek Brown on. And Maggie, why don't I turn it over to you and you can introduce or say hello to Derek. Thank you, Jim. And welcome back. It's good to see you after legislative session has wrapped

[00:00:58] in Connecticut and nice to be back. And now we can have some fun now that we're heading into the summer. But Derek, thank you for joining us today. You know, this is the political life podcast. And I think you have lived the political life a few times

[00:01:14] over. You have the trifecta of legal experience, policy and political. And so how did you kind of get your start? Where where did you first get the bug? Well, you know, it's funny, by the way, I am here in Utah. And our political life,

[00:01:33] at least from the state legislative standpoint, is only 45 days long. So anybody who's either in the legislature or working with the legislature, we have I mean, this is not to make everybody else jealous. But we start generally the Tuesday after

[00:01:48] Martin Luther King Day, and we go for 45 days. And when the clock strikes 12, 45 days after it all ends. And so you can literally have a bill like like if it's and if it's not done by midnight. And I had back to had a bill I

[00:02:04] was working on one session. And we were about five minutes too late. And it ended and the bill died and we had to start from scratch the next session. But anyway, so we've been done here a little while in Utah, and

[00:02:16] like a lot of the other states, Jim, that you've probably been doing work in. Well, I can't I can't I thought Texas was short at 90 days. So you have beat by half. That's incredible. But Utah has a number of special sessions. Like I think you all hit the

[00:02:32] record in 2020 on like seven special sessions. We did not get tried you competed, I think you had three but there is there there are a lot of special sessions that can occur in a Utah.

[00:02:44] I'm impressed that you know that. So I was in the House of Representatives. And when I was in the house probably 10 or 12 years ago, when the session was over, you might have a special session at some point during the year, maybe

[00:02:58] two, maybe one. So you're right, I need to have like seven and 2020. And it seems like we have them now. But about every other month. So we are a part time legislature. But it's gone to the point where that's kind of a

[00:03:11] running joke for those who are in the legislature, because it almost feels like there's nothing part time about it anymore. Yeah, it's like I see you soon. Exactly. So my my background is kind of weird. Like, I mean, everybody

[00:03:25] sort of comes to these things from different backgrounds. I thought that I would have a very traditional, I mean, I graduated from law school, I clerked for a judge in the US Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit,

[00:03:38] which is Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware area. And then I was recruited by a good friend of mine named Mike Lee, who some of you may have heard of and he was a buddy of mine. And he was working at a firm called

[00:03:52] Sidley Austin in Washington and suggested that I go there. And I went there honestly believing that I just spend the next 40 years of my career, practicing law, litigating, doing appellate work. And, you know, the reality is, I guess, and this is maybe a more a metaphysical, you know,

[00:04:11] story for life. But I guess you just have to be open to, you know, doors that doors that may open because, you know, I had an opportunity to go and be chief counsel for our US Senator, a guy

[00:04:23] named Bob Bennett. And, you know, I left the firm with some trepidation and everyone in the firm said, You'll never come back. You'll never come back, you know, kind of as a warning. And I ended

[00:04:35] up going to the Hill and I never really did come back. I loved it. It was just one of the I mean, in terms of professionally rewarding, I just I love working on the Hill. And, and I've sort of been

[00:04:46] mixed up in politics ever since then. And I've kind of joked about the fact that I've really tried to get out of politics. And I keep failing. And so here I am in one more one more political failure

[00:04:58] at my attempts to extract myself from politics, I have a love hating relationship with it. So how long did you? How long did it take you to go back to Utah and then, you know, run for the statehouse?

[00:05:12] Well, I practiced for a couple of years, I was on the Hill with Senator Bennett for a couple of years. And then what was interesting is my wife had started a company, a production company doing children's entertainment, where they taught children sign language. And she was

[00:05:28] commuting back and forth to Utah because she had gotten a contract with PBS to do a TV show. And I just like the community just didn't make sense. And both of us were from Utah. And I always knew that at some point, I go back home

[00:05:42] and that's where you know, I had brothers and sisters and that kind of thing. And so that's why we ended up moving back to Utah five or six years after we'd been in DC. And can I just for our listeners out there, what was

[00:05:56] it like? You know, leaving the law firm and going to work on Capitol Hill as chief counsel and try to give them a and I don't know, were you in the majority or the minority at that point? And what was the job like?

[00:06:11] We were barely in the majority. So this was about 2004. And you know, it's funny is I went there in a sense, I had billed the previous year, like 2700 hours like a crazy I didn't sleep. You know, and here's here's

[00:06:28] a funny, funny side note is like, so I had this crazy year build crazy hours. We had a trial. I worked with a we represented a large pharmaceutical company in the first trial they had on a drug that was recalled where there

[00:06:41] was a class action. And so that we won the trial and I got this very large bonus from the firm and they were I loved working with them and they basically said, look, you know, nobody has to work that hard. But you know, we don't

[00:06:55] expect that but that's what you do, you know, when you work at these big firms and you have a client emergency, that's what you do. And so they gave me this big bonus that was almost exactly what I needed to pay off all my

[00:07:05] student loans. And so my wife and I just thought, just it's a bad financial move to just pay them all off. The interest rates were so low, but we just did it and thought, alright, let's just see what you know, the

[00:07:16] universe has now for us. And about two weeks later, I got a call from a friend of mine that was Senator Bennett's chief counsel. And he said, this is his exact phrase was, would you like to take the vow of poverty and come

[00:07:29] to the hill? He says, I promise you it will be more fun than you ever had at the law firm. And so I took a major major cut in pay, thinking that I would have more fun and work less hours. And I was half right. I

[00:07:43] had way more fun. But I ended up working just as many hours on the firm. I mean, then as I did with the firm, because what would happen is we were so busy, I had so many legal issues going on that when about six

[00:07:56] o'clock came at night, I was able to like this phone stopped ringing and everyone left and then I could actually get things done. Yeah. And so but I love doing it. I mean, it was so much fun. Plus it was

[00:08:07] my home state of Utah. So dealing with other members of the delegation and the legislature in the governor's office. I mean, these are people that I already knew. And so it was it was definitely rewarding. And every bit as exhausting as working in a

[00:08:20] law firm. It really is. I recommend it to everyone. Yeah, it's like having a pact with your state when you represent when you work for a representative or senator in Congress, it is like this responsibility that you feel to those back home when you're on

[00:08:37] the hill and I slept with my blackberry. I just remember always checking in on the night if the member needed something so so we must have been the same era because I that was where I got my first blackberry as well. Yeah,

[00:08:49] was on the hill. So I had a blackberry and a cell phone with me at all times and then it was fashionable to have like a belt holder for you where you could hold them and it's kind of

[00:08:58] cheesy that I think about the fact that I had one of those now but anyway, parts of the night. Exactly. So what um, what was the trigger for you to go back home? I mean, you've got your wife that kind of took you back through her work,

[00:09:15] which I didn't realize but when you got back there was the initial inclination to go back into, you know, private practice or did you immediately see a path towards the Capitol? No, I didn't and that's that's why I just I

[00:09:31] look back at my career and just kind of have to laugh. I was interviewing with several large law firms back in Utah and three or four days I had I had a couple offers on the plate. I hadn't decided which one to

[00:09:43] accept and three or four days before I left to go back. I had lunch with a friend of mine on the hill who was Senator Orrin Hatch's chief of staff and he said, wait, I didn't realize you're moving back. And I told him

[00:09:57] why and whatever I get back to the my office in the Dirksen building, I get a call from Senator Hatch. He said, hey, can you come down and chat with me? I'm in the heart building. I'm like, Senator, I know where you are, been your office many times.

[00:10:11] Chat with him. He asked me if I would be his counsel back in Utah when I moved back. And Bennett didn't have counsel and I just thought, you know, that would be a again, it kind of keep me in the in the

[00:10:21] swing of what I had been doing on the hill. And so I worked with Senator Hatch and helped him through the next election. And then a few years later, I was helping out with this business that my wife had started and I ran for the House

[00:10:35] of Representatives. And I ran again who had beat the sitting speaker two years before. And so it was a big it was a big race and it was the kind of the ultimate swing scene in Utah, because we have 75 House members. But as you can imagine, of

[00:10:51] the 75 races, there are maybe five that are competitive, you know, I'm saying five, maybe six, seven at the most. And this was the kind of the big swing race of 2010. And I was able to win by six or seven points and served

[00:11:07] in the house for a couple of years. And after been there after I had been reelected once, then I had my old friend, Mike Lee came back to me and said, Hey, would you come and consider being my deputy chief of staff and

[00:11:20] working in D.C., running my Utah offices? And I said, Look, I'm I'm willing to do that. Can't move back to D.C. because I have kids in high school. So it didn't make sense for us to relocate. So so I worked with Senator

[00:11:31] Lee for a number of years. And then again, it was like jumping back to the private sector. And that's when I went and did my own my own work, mostly government relations at that point. So I was still an attorney, still practicing doing legal work.

[00:11:44] But but I started building up a clientele of companies that really needed government relations work and partnered with a friend of mine named Chase Everton, who you may know, Maggie. And and just had just it really is the some of the funnest work I've ever done.

[00:12:02] So I'm back, you know, working with legislators that I knew that were colleagues of mine and doing like what I found was the perfect blend of legal work and government relations and business and kind of all wrapped together with politics. And really, I really enjoyed doing that.

[00:12:18] I also had a two year spell where I served as the chairman of the Utah Republican Party. And so that was fun in the way that like a root canal every morning is fun because it is. I always wondered, like, it's like he's done this, this and

[00:12:34] this. And then when I heard you had put your hat, your name in the hat for that, I was like, wow, he really likes to challenge. Well, here there's only two reasons you do you run for that kind of position and anyone who's

[00:12:48] been a party chair knows what they are. Number one, you're just crazy. You're just crazy or a narcissist or something. Or number two, you have someone like a governor or speaker of the House or Senate president that twists your arm and says,

[00:13:01] it's your turn to take a turn doing this. And generally, you know, you recoil in horror and then eventually you would just agree to do it. And had I known that there was a pandemic that I would be serving in the middle of, oh, I

[00:13:15] I never would have done it. But anyway, turned out to be a good experience. And I had no gray hairs when I got elected and when I finished up my two year term as party chair, I had most of them gray. So anyway,

[00:13:29] it was a it was a fantastic experience, though. And so that's I think that's how public service has to be, though. You don't you don't plot it out. I think you just you serve. You just do what you can. You're out. You're part of the community.

[00:13:42] You do what you love to do and the doors open up on opportunities. And sometimes they make sense, sometimes they don't. Yeah, I think people that have had the most successful and interesting careers have taken just that path like just just, you know, don't really have a specific

[00:13:59] road map. They keep their head down. They work hard like you have and just different very interesting opportunities present present themselves. I mean, look at the different jobs from the from the private practice in Washington, the chief council to Utah, then over to Senator Hatch's

[00:14:17] office. I mean, really state rep running then head of the party. You know, if you have a if you had a specific road map, you might have said no to any one of those because no, no, no. I want to go back and do this. It's very interesting.

[00:14:33] Well, if the road map were how do I make as much money as possible? I kept blowing at it every conceivable turn. Well, I was going to say the first time we ever spoke, you did a stint at one eight hundred contacts. And I remember the first time

[00:14:48] you ever you called you called it and I was at CSG at the time. And I remember thinking this gentleman is really impressive. He's he's like a cut above. I think you had just left the legislature. And then by the time, you know, our second call came

[00:15:02] around. You had already left. But we already got we got Allison Fleming out of the. Oh, Allison is fantastic. Yeah. You had already stood up your firm. It was just kind of a quick turn. And part of that was the fact that I had started with one

[00:15:17] hundred contacts and about a year after I started, I was traveling about five days a week. Yep. We had it was it was a really you know how you go in and fits and spurts in government relations. I mean, sometimes you'll have just more problems than you

[00:15:33] ever know what to do with and that other times things are calm. I was there during a really tumultuous time just nationally for some of their issues. And and so, you know, I left it in my own firm but continued to work with them.

[00:15:46] So we still did work for them in Utah. But but there were about 20 different states where we had pending issues. And so it was I sort of lived on lived at the Delta Sky Lounge is what where my my home away from home was.

[00:16:01] I'm sure a lot of people listening know exactly what that's like. Yep. Allison still does. Yes, she does. So the the pandemic party chair post from that experience and knowing the politics and how you know, party politics have turned and you've just been through the

[00:16:21] delicate process in this current race for attorney general. What do you think that you took from being deep into the politics of the state in 2020? What is carrying over into 2024? What lessons have informed you now as a candidate that maybe started to to fester

[00:16:41] during kind of a tumultuous cycle? Well, one of the things we've seen recently, at least in Utah, is we have this really interesting process where the state convention gets you the ballot or you can collect signatures, which is an alternate approach. So you have two

[00:17:00] ways to get to the ballot. And when this process was put into place about 10 years ago, it it sort of well, it was sort of like a ticking time bomb that was about to detonate. And I dealt with that because the delegates aren't too happy with

[00:17:19] that whole issue. But you started seeing more and more candidates collect signatures and also do the convention process. And so what was interesting is, is with each passing year, it created more and more problems and more more internal controversy. And I dealt with it as party chair because

[00:17:36] it was just this constant battle. And it's I had hoped that it would resolve itself. And I tried to resolve it. It was probably the one my one regret is I wasn't able to do that, but I don't know that there was any resolution because we

[00:17:52] two two weeks ago just had a convention here and it we saw that even more. I mean, the governor stood up and I mean, if you want to see an interesting speech, our governor gets up in front of four thousand delegates who boo him and catcall and heckle.

[00:18:11] And he basically says to them, you know what, boo away, heckle away. I know I'm not going to win here at convention, but I'm going to win in the primary. So go ahead, do your best. And so we kind of poked them a little bit.

[00:18:27] And there's been in the last two weeks, there's been a lot of controversy, a lot of people kind of angry about that. But it's like you have these two camps, one camp is saying, well, he's exactly right. Like they don't really matter in the end and the other

[00:18:40] camp is saying that we should matter because that's the better system. And so, you know, that's been festering for almost a decade. And so that was an issue that that I dealt with. A lot of people don't understand that I I'm the first attorney general candidate ever to

[00:18:56] collect twenty eight thousand signatures in the state of Utah. Wow. And to turn them in. And by doing that and having support of people like the governor and the lieutenant governor, the former governor, I knew that the folks who didn't like the governor would kind

[00:19:12] of come after me and I would probably end up needing those signatures. And I did in the end. So that's why I collected them. But it's a fascinating process and is every time I think that Utah has a particularly dysfunctional party system,

[00:19:27] then I meet a state party chair from another state and I go, oh, we're pretty good. Yeah. The only state more dysfunctional than us is all the other states, which are actually equally as dysfunctional in their own. And it doesn't matter if it's red or blue or

[00:19:45] or you know, I'm saying like I remember talking with the state party chairs in states like Indiana or Oklahoma or Texas. And they had their own set of challenges. And then you get blue states like Oregon or California. Again, the party dynamics are just as challenging and

[00:20:01] and frustrating for the party chairs. And so it doesn't really matter. It's and it's just, I think, a dynamic that we are seeing all across the country. I don't know if it's just a Trump dynamic or what, but most parties are are really struggling

[00:20:16] to have any sort of unity. Yeah, uniformity and unity. Well, in terms of the AG race, I think we're kind of nearing down into the final weeks. You do have a really diverse set of endorsements from folks of different political stripes inside the Republican Party.

[00:20:35] But just in terms of, you know, the the role of the AG, I think it has evolved in recent years. It's a big office with big challenges and big responsibilities. But, you know, should you secure the primary win and go on to the general

[00:20:51] and become the AG next year? You know, what are your goals and priorities for this office? Well, I think we've been through a little bit of challenging time, I think, with the AG's office. And a lot of what our current AG has done philosophically is stuff

[00:21:09] that I would continue to do. I mean, he's been very active. And as you mentioned, the AG's AG's have changed in the last five, just five or ten years. They used to be, I mean, fundamentally, you're just, you know, and I like to say

[00:21:24] that we're just the AG is running the state's largest law firm. At least in Utah, that's the case. We have about 290 attorneys, over 500 people total. And I know a lot of states have a multiple of that, but that's significantly larger than any other law firm.

[00:21:42] That's a Utah based law firm here. And so a lot of what the AG has to do is manage the organization, set a vision, set a direction. And we've seen around the country the last five or ten years, attorneys general have become more, more proactive

[00:22:00] in terms of what I think they view their role to be. And so from my standpoint, there's a couple of things I want to do. I think it's been a long time since we've had someone really do kind of an overall top to bottom analysis of the

[00:22:15] office to make sure that every we have people that are in the right positions. The legislature has they're currently doing a really comprehensive audit of the entire office. And there's been some press over why they're doing that. And I won't get into that right now, but there

[00:22:32] are a couple of things they're going to be looking at. But some specifics, but some general things like efficiency, effectiveness, policies, procedures, morale. And so one of the things I intend to do is look at that audit and implement as many things as reasonably

[00:22:49] makes sense. I don't know that we've had major changes for a while. I think there's some transparency issues that can be addressed. And from a political standpoint, one of the things I'd really like to look at is to address the area of federal overreach

[00:23:05] because that's one of the things I mean, for a lot of people listening, I mean, most of them are probably not from Utah in Utah. This is a big issue. Like I spoke with the Sheriff's Association not too long ago and we have 29 counties in Utah

[00:23:19] and like 25 of the sheriffs. All they wanted to talk about were federal lands. And it's because two thirds of our state is controlled by the federal government. And so that creates a really unique dynamic because it's not just the federal government per se controls

[00:23:36] them from D.C., but they appoint people who are located here in BLM or EPA, who have a major impact on what happens in the state of Utah. And I mean, you have some counties in Utah where the federal government operates and controls over 90 percent of the land.

[00:23:56] And so what that means is those kind of mid-level bureaucrats at places like BLM really do control most of the county. They control everything from grazing rights to leasing rights, to land use rights, to recreation. I mean, any of those things get controlled by the federal government.

[00:24:12] And so there is this back and forth tug of war between states and the federal government. And one of the concerns that I've had is is that I think that Congress hasn't really done. I mean, I think our delegation here in Utah, federal delegation, they do a

[00:24:28] really good job. But a lot of times Congress doesn't have the they don't have the majorities they need to pass legislation with definitions. Right. I mean, they'll say EPA has control over navigable waters. Well, what does that mean? Well, we know what we think it means,

[00:24:48] but we're not going to define it because we don't have a majority. We don't have the votes to define it. So we'll just let you know, kind of the midlevel bureaucrats figure out what that means. And and the reality is then those midlevel bureaucrats who aren't really accountable

[00:25:03] have a substantial amount of power. And so I see there's a tug of war between that group and states like Utah. And so we're going to see that shift. And in the next couple of weeks, we'll hear back from the court on what's called the Chevron doctrine. Yep.

[00:25:20] And if that the Loper-Bride case, I mean, if that's if the court pulls back on Chevron, I think you're going to see attorneys general, particularly Republican attorneys general. And there's 28 of them. You're going to see them become, I think, a lot more proactive. But anyway, that's

[00:25:37] one of the roles that I see the attorney general playing in addition to the traditional roles of working, you know, to provide legal advice and running the states, you know, effectively the state's law firm. I think that as legislation continues to become more complicated and complex

[00:25:55] that the AG's office has to kind of rise to being that partner advisor on the legislative process as well. And I think that that is also a new role that AG's have taken on with like privacy and all of these just major, you know, issues hitting legislatures. So.

[00:26:16] Yeah, and legislatures do the same thing at the state level is they'll pass bills and then they'll give a significant amount of regulatory discretion to the agencies and then figuring out, you know, the nuances in that language. Really, it's up to the agencies

[00:26:33] and then who do they look to to make sure that they're within, you know, the legal confines. That's that's the AG's role. Derek, before, as you know, the attorney generals get active in what are known as national lawsuits. Are there? Will you be as Utah

[00:26:56] been active on at that level? And are there any cases that you have found interesting or troubling? Or how do you think about that whole that whole area? Well, I think there are there's definitely strength in numbers. And I know that we see this at the national level

[00:27:15] and you have groups like, you know, the Republican, you know, AG Association, Soraga and the Democrats obviously have dog. And I think that that there is strength in having other states join you. And I've seen a number of lawsuits recently that are things that I would anticipate joining.

[00:27:34] Some are, you know, broad, far reaching issues like whether educational educational statutes allow the president to unilaterally forgive student loans, for instance, you know. And then there's others that are that are probably not as impactful, but still meaningful. I mean, the the AG and Louisiana, Liz Murl

[00:27:57] recently headed up a lawsuit with a lot of other AGs dealing with what they call the dishwasher rule, which is kind of funny. And you may think that it's not that big a deal. But but it's for me, it was very symbolic that, you know, 20

[00:28:10] some odd years ago, Department of Energy got the authority to regulate shower heads, faucets and urinals. And two years ago, DOE said, you know what? We think that also means dishwashers. It didn't say that anywhere in the statute. And but they just said,

[00:28:26] well, it's it doesn't say that, but it's so good that it really ought to say that. And so the attorney general of Louisiana filed a lawsuit saying it doesn't say that. And if it doesn't say that, then you shouldn't, you know, you shouldn't based on the textual analysis

[00:28:41] have the authority to do that. And she won. The only reason I bring it up is she won a couple of months ago. There were a number of AGs and so I would anticipate being active in that regard because I think it's an appropriate place

[00:28:56] for states to push back. I don't see. I mean, a lot of people complain that states are being impetuous or or petulant or whatever, you know, by complaining about federal overreach. But I think that's one of the things the Tenth Amendment gives to the states.

[00:29:12] I mean, it's that that tug of war between the state and federal, you know, the the limits you have that tug of war is just part of the system that's built in. And so I see that as one of the state's rights is the ability to push back.

[00:29:28] And we have a kind of an interesting thing in Utah that you may see other states do. But this last legislative session, they passed a bill that said in the event, there is something that is that really goes beyond what we think is the federal government's authority

[00:29:44] rather than just do it and then grumble and file a lawsuit later. We're actually with a few boxes that we check, like the governor and the speaker and the Senate president all agreeing, we're just going to not do it and then let them sue us.

[00:29:58] And those are I mean, it was designed to be big things like there's a the EPA has what they call the ozone transfer rule, which is a rule that's designed to shut down a number of the power plants here in Utah. So what it does is it flips

[00:30:11] that mentality on its head and then it becomes the AG's responsibility to defend that kind of suit. So you may see other states doing something similar, but it's a it's a fascinating approach. Whether legally it holds up, I don't know. But I suspect that

[00:30:26] that if I win as attorney general, there will be at least one, if not more lawsuit lawsuits like that that I will be defending on behalf of the state. Interesting, interesting. Can tell us a little bit about the race from here. Post convention, any debates planned?

[00:30:48] What's the what's the date of the primary and and what's how what's your what's what's the plan of attack? Well, in Utah, we've just had the convention, but really the only the only we have two dates that matter. One is June 25th, our primary,

[00:31:05] and then election day in November. So June 25th is the big day. And then we also in about, you know, June 5th or 6th is when the ballots will be landing in mailboxes. So here in Utah, we have a universal vote by mail system where everyone

[00:31:21] gets a ballot in the mail. And then you have, you know, three weeks to in fact, I think just last Friday, the Yulia Kava ballots went out. So we're we're we're moving and shaking. And I most people probably don't realize how many things have to happen

[00:31:39] for those ballots between the time that you certify who's on the ballot and then the ballots coming out. I mean, when I was the state party chair, I tried to change some dates. And in fact, we did change some because of some federal statutes that came down.

[00:31:52] And I was it was unbelievable what the clerks have to do to get those things ready. But anyway, so from here on out, I have two other opponents. I feel really, really confident about where things are. But but as you know, you can never take anything for granted.

[00:32:08] And so we will have our our foot on the, you know, the foot on the gas, so to speak, from now through June 25th. And there's a lot of work to do. We'll have TV ads going up any day now. We'll have, you know, more and more

[00:32:22] just different events planned. And, you know, we'll be traveling throughout the whole state. And so it's it's a fun process and it is exhausting. And I don't think I'll get much sleep until June 25th. And then hopefully I can sleep for a week or two

[00:32:37] and then prepare for a general. Yeah, county festivals will start in the next few weeks. So lots of candy throwing coming up. Exactly parades. Yes, parade season is upon us. So you have four kids, I believe. The bigs and the littles. Yes, out of the four

[00:32:56] who's going to run for governor someday? You know, just you know, it's it's crazy. Is my my kids? I mean, they're interested in politics, but like they've shown no interest in really doing much of anything. So I have two that are in their mid 20s

[00:33:10] and then two that are in middle school and then like a 10 year gap. So I have two boys in college, both at both the Brigham Young University. And it's interesting. They're both musical geniuses. And so one of them just spent the last three years

[00:33:27] as part of a traveling, performing a cappella group called the Vocal Point. And it's a it's a nine member group and they've traveled to the Philippines and Cuba and the BYU sends them all over. And my son's the beatboxer for the group. And so so they do that.

[00:33:44] And so politics is just kind of a an interesting thing dad does. But I don't know, at some point, maybe they'll show an interest in politics. But for now, I think they're enjoying the college experience. And, you know, so we'll see. So I don't know.

[00:33:59] I mean, it's interesting. And, you know, I had parents that had very, you know, pretty much nothing to do with politics. And so it wasn't until I was finishing up college and I did an internship for the Senate minority leader here in Utah that I had any interest

[00:34:13] in politics whatsoever. So it's funny how that happens. I've always thought of you as like a product of Boy State, just based on like your the compilation of your your life and career experiences. I'm like, surely he went to Boy State. He just gets every angle

[00:34:29] of the political arena. But it's interesting. Sorry, it is. It's fun. And, you know, and I've loved I've loved doing it. I mean, part of it is I love like I just I love my state of Utah. I mean, that sounds really, you know, cheesy and sappy.

[00:34:45] And I don't mean it to sound that. But I really do. I mean, this is really this is home for me. I mean, I spent years in L.A. and went to law school there. I've been in D.C. I've lived all over. I spent two years

[00:34:55] as an LDS missionary in Spain. You know, so I loved I mean, Europe and Spain and becoming. You know, I was I, you know, was was, you know, as as fully Spanish as you can get. I mean, that was my those are my people, you know,

[00:35:11] and I loved that experience. But Utah is kind of my home. And that's as you mentioned before, Maggie, when you work on the Hill, I mean, the only reason I left the law firm there was because I had this opportunity with my home state senator.

[00:35:25] And that's why I love doing it. So I, you know, I'm hoping that I mean, my attitude with public service is you step up, you serve and you step out. And the time time comes, you know, and and, you know, just to be really

[00:35:39] just brutally honest with you here. I like if my goal all along was to run for attorney general, you know, I did a lousy job. You know what I'm saying? Like, I probably should have never done like government relations as part of my legal practice,

[00:35:53] because like I have one of my opponents who just hits me all the time. She criticizes me for being a lobbyist all the time. Everywhere she goes. And ironically, she used to lobby too. So there's a little hypocrisy there. But as you know, in politics,

[00:36:06] you just don't have time to respond to every criticism. And so but when I ran for office, I knew that would be the case. And I've had a lot of good friends around the country who said, look, we're watching your race. I sort of why?

[00:36:20] And they said, well, because there's always this unstated rule that if you've ever done anything in the lobbying arena, you can never, ever run for office again. You're done. It's finished. And Derek, if you win, maybe we have to rethink that. Maybe, you know,

[00:36:34] we don't look at lobbying as this dirty practice, but rather, you know, somebody who understands, you know, you've learned to navigate the political process because that's what the attorney general is. If you don't understand the political dynamics and appropriations in the legislature

[00:36:52] and you think you can just jump in and be successful, you may be wrong because fundamentally in every state, with the exception of the states where it's mostly a political appointment, there's five or six of those, but in every state, it's a political position

[00:37:08] and you really do need to navigate those dynamics. And you need to work with appropriators to fund your office and you need to work with the speaker of the house and that sort of thing. So it is, it's one of those things where hopefully that's,

[00:37:22] you know, if I were plotting it all out. It added to the expertise, yeah. I think, I hope so, you know? Like I said, if I had plotted it out, you know, my career, you know, I would have been at Sidley Austin in DC

[00:37:35] for the last 25 years litigating. You know, if I had done what I thought I was gonna do when I finished up my courtship and my career has been way more interesting and eventful and, you know, so that, I guess that's my message for people

[00:37:50] is be open to new things and serve wherever you can, you know, grow where you're planted. Wherever called. Whenever, yeah, whenever I had young people at the party that would say, I wanna run for office. Where do I run? I'd say, don't. Go to, where do you live?

[00:38:04] Like get involved in your community. Get to know your mayor. Get to know your legislator. Whatever you do for work, like do it and love it and get good at it. And the day will come when some door opens and you go, ooh,

[00:38:16] that's a, like that looks really interesting and you'll know it when it happens. And so for me, that's just kind of been my motto is, you know, step up, serve and then step out. I like that. I think we'll end on that note, Maggie,

[00:38:34] unless you have something else. That's a, that should be your tagline for your campaign. You're gonna, I think that's perfect. People like it. People like it when a politician knows how to exit stage left. So yeah. Yeah, there's something to be said for it.

[00:38:49] Roll up your sleeves, work hard and then move on. Onto the next. Yeah. I don't think people like the idea. Well, thank you. I appreciate the, appreciate you having me on the show. Yeah. Derek, this has been great. Great to interview you and hear about the race

[00:39:07] and we will be following it closely for our listeners out there. Thank you for tuning in and we hope you have a great week and we will see you next Monday.